Black-ish's Kenya Barris' Unlikely Friendship with Malcolm Gladwell

Kenya Barris, the Emmy-nominated creator of Black-ish, knows that him teaming up with Malcolm Gladwell for the new Audible series The Unusual Suspects is a bit of an odd pairing. "We're actually not as odd, but it's an interesting combination." And their guest list is just as diverse, from entertainment figures like Jimmy Kimmel and Ava DuVernay to renowned chef David Chang. "We want people who are at the top of their [field]. [We] ask, 'What was the thing behind the thing? What was the thing that you didn't see?'" And if the caliber of their first guests is any indication, there will be lots more to come. "I hope that people will receive it, because there's so many people who I'd love to talk to that I think are culturally zeitgeist-defining characters that people may not know about." And he's eager to work more with Gladwell, especially because of his voice. "He's so good at understanding his audible power, his sonic power.... I always look at my [nasally] voice like, 'This is the voice you give me, God, to talk to women? Thank you, I appreciate you.'" [laughs]

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Editor's Note: This conversation has been edited and condensed for publication.

Where did the idea for this come from?

So I'm a huge fan of Malcolm's. Malcolm is one of the only guys that I fan out over. We met as a fan. I was at a restaurant and introduced myself to him. But I began to know him a little bit more over the years, and we did a couple podcasts and we just kind of clicked. But for me, when I looked at this, what I really wanted to do, and what I found that Malcolm gave me, and something that we had in common was that he likes to look at things and look at the story behind the story. He'll talk about ketchup, but he'll get this long, imaginative voyage of what ketchup was and how it got there. I'll do that often with cultural things, from race to gender to sexuality. So we thought about that in terms of our guests, who we wanted for our guests, we want people who are at the top of their [field], but ask "What was the thing behind the thing? What was the thing that you didn't see?" We really enjoy having these conversations, and we love the title The Unusual Suspects, because these are people who, by all means, have affected each of our lives in some way, but you may not know exactly how or why or what they did.

And one of your guests, Jimmy Kimmel, is a perfect example of that. He's been in our homes for years now, always on TV, a constant through everything. But in your chat, we see a different side of him.

One hundred percent. And he's kind of become, to your point, the king [of late night]. He's stood the test of time, and he's done it in such a graceful way. And he's just a really good guy. By no means is he naive or a slouch, he's a pro. Him saying he approaches it in a way that when you hear him talk about it, you're like, "Oh, this guy really understands what he's doing and how he's doing it in a different kind of way."

And you and Malcolm together are a bit of an odd couple in a way. You approach these conversations in such a different way.

I love that. I mean, that's what the plan was. I hope that it comes across, and I hope that people will receive it, because because there's so many people who I'd love to talk to that I think are culturally zeitgeist-defining characters that people may not know about, but I think they have interesting stories. I'd like to know how this or how they sort of came to be. And we're actually not as odd, but it's an interesting combination.

And you kind of bring out surprising things in each other.

I agree and Malcolm, to that point, when we come and we do our wraparounds, or I just hear Malcolm dig into what he does, he's so good at understanding his audible power, his sonic power. I learned so much, how to find your voice within your voice, because you think you're just talking, [but] it's how people receive their voice. He's just a master. I learned a lot from him.

Did anything surprise you from your chats?

[Maryland Governor] Wes Moore was a really big one for me. I think that they all were unbelievable, but I walked away from Wes Moore's conversation very much like, "Please be our president." I was blown away by him. He was so intentional in his thoughts and plans and ideologies and how he saw things and what he had been through. I love when people can take what they've had and what they've learned, and metabolize them into something greater. Take the negatives and the positives and metabolize them into success, but even better, success that could help more people. The phrase, "A life lived without service is like a life not lived," and he really embodied that for me. And at the same time, he had this charisma and this charm. I thought [Barack] Obama was impressive, and I still do, but this guy was, he was different.

When you're speaking with someone like a Wes Moore who, on paper, you have nothing in common with, what makes you curious about them?

One of my idols is Norman Lear, right? Mentor. I was friends with Norman, whatever. I remember I went to breakfast with Norman. At the time he was like 88, 89. And he walks in, he's pretty healthy but he's still an older guy. He has a drink, comes out, and he goes. And I'm like, "Where's his driver?" And he gets to the car and drives off. And I'm like, "Oh, this guy's not f****** around." But on the back of his car, there's this bumper sticker that says, "Just Another Version of You," and it was profound. That's what I think we look at when we're talking to people and want to say with Malcolm, we're all just another version of each other, right? That's kind of with Malcolm's books too, right? They find the thing [and] they reduce it down to that part that we're all able to get, that we're all able to understand. And I think that in the interviews, that's what we're trying to do, trying to reduce the journey of these of greats down to what is the thing that [the] person listening to this person can find a piece of themselves. That's what we try to do unknowingly. I think that's what our styles are.

Because of Black-ish and so much else that you've done, you've certainly had a cultural impact. Do you feel that?

I don't know about the impact, right? But I do think that I am constantly evolving. My grandma used to have this saying, "Best way of communicating is being open to exiting a conversation before you enter it." And I think that's kind of the key to entertainment and writing and politics and investing and whatever. Be open to come into something [knowing it] might not be the way you leave with it. If you take the information that's been presented to you and actually contextualize it and not just try to fight against it, right? If you do that, it may not be exactly the way you thought it was going to be, and that's okay. I think it helps me in terms of writing [and] how I approach the subject I want to talk about.

The last thing I have to ask you about is your hope to develop It's a Wonderful Life for modern audiences, which I think is a great idea.

It's one of my favorite projects. We fought so long and so hard. It's one of the hardest properties to ever get because it's such a successful thing. When people say remake, it's an 84-year-old movie, so I don't think it's a remake at this point. But when I would look at that movie, it's about mental health. He's on the verge at the top [of the movie]. It's also about a person who feels like he always got the sh** end of the stick, which I think a lot of people can relate to. The gap between the haves and the have-nots. Our take was a person of color in the center of it, which I think speaks to right now. Someone who would want to really change their community from the inside, because they don't get a lot of chance. I'm really happy, excited about it. I hope that it's something we're able to get done and become half the classic that the original was.

Correction 1/22/2025 11:46 a.m.: The title of Kenya Barris' podcast was corrected to "The Unusual Suspects." It was previously referred to as "The Usual Suspects." We regret the error.